Comments on: The Lord’s Day (Pt 1) http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/ in order to present every man complete in Christ Thu, 04 Mar 2010 03:39:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: affectional writ Longing for the Lord's Day — http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-86 affectional writ Longing for the Lord's Day — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 06:39:21 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-86 <p>[...] In reading a letter that Jonathan Edwards wrote to Rev. Dr. Benjamin Colman, Edwards writes about the new converts in his church and their affection for the Lord’s Day. [...]</p> [...] In reading a letter that Jonathan Edwards wrote to Rev. Dr. Benjamin Colman, Edwards writes about the new converts in his church and their affection for the Lord’s Day. [...]

]]> By: bean http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-82 bean Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:16:47 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-82 <p>Wow - I love these comments! I do have to say that "My Esteemed Shepherd" made me laugh. I just wanted to throw in that skh (my esteemed head) had us switch to weekly giving awhile back, and at first my accounting brain had difficulty with it - why not twice a month when the paycheck comes? But now I LOVE it - it totally helps me refocus my money eyes onto the right things. I also love it as part of our Sunday morning liturgy...well, at least on the Sundays that I'm not having private liturgy with sick children at home. :)</p> Wow – I love these comments! I do have to say that “My Esteemed Shepherd” made me laugh. I just wanted to throw in that skh (my esteemed head) had us switch to weekly giving awhile back, and at first my accounting brain had difficulty with it – why not twice a month when the paycheck comes? But now I LOVE it – it totally helps me refocus my money eyes onto the right things. I also love it as part of our Sunday morning liturgy…well, at least on the Sundays that I’m not having private liturgy with sick children at home. :)

]]> By: admin http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-81 admin Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:33:48 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-81 <p>Sure. I'm not ready to call bi-monthly (or any other recurring frequency) giving sinful. However I would never recommend participating in the Lord's day bi-monthly or singing two of four songs or listening to parts of the message. Full participation is best, but as always the key is the heart motivation. A person could give Sunday morning <em>and</em> Sunday night and be a complete abomination to the Lord. But personal preparation and steady putting aside resulting in weekly giving is not only a healthy discipline, but also a source of <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2co+9%3A6-8" rel="nofollow">grace abounding</a> joy.</p> Sure. I’m not ready to call bi-monthly (or any other recurring frequency) giving sinful. However I would never recommend participating in the Lord’s day bi-monthly or singing two of four songs or listening to parts of the message. Full participation is best, but as always the key is the heart motivation. A person could give Sunday morning and Sunday night and be a complete abomination to the Lord. But personal preparation and steady putting aside resulting in weekly giving is not only a healthy discipline, but also a source of grace abounding joy.

]]> By: intern http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-80 intern Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:24:47 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-80 <p>Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it. I totally understand what you are saying and I agree.</p> <p>So are you petitioning then for the church to think of giving as a weekly thing out more than a "percentage of my paycheck which I get twice a month" thing? In other words, rather than giving when we get paid, but purposely splitting up our gifts to the Lord and evenly spreading it across all the Sundays of the month?</p> Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it. I totally understand what you are saying and I agree.

So are you petitioning then for the church to think of giving as a weekly thing out more than a “percentage of my paycheck which I get twice a month” thing? In other words, rather than giving when we get paid, but purposely splitting up our gifts to the Lord and evenly spreading it across all the Sundays of the month?

]]> By: admin http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-79 admin Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:06:15 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-79 <p>Back to the context of 1 Corinthians 16:2, clearly Paul was collecting funds to help the Jerusalem church. I totally agree that was at least <em>one</em> of the purposes of the offering.</p> <p>In fact, taking collections to help those in need was a regular practice of the early church (Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-37). And when do we suppose they took those collections, especially in light of the fact that the apostles were responsible for distributing as there was need (Acts 4:35, 37)? True, there is no universally explicit command for Christians to give money to help others, and there is nothing that limits giving only to the first day of the week, but the pattern in 1 Corinthians 16:2 and the practical benefits of collecting when gathered points towards Sunday giving.</p> <p>Presumably, collected money was also used to support elders who rule well (1 Timothy 5:18-19). Again there is nothing that limits this "double honor" collection to the first day of the week, but the practical benefits (and perhaps we might also add the Jewish pattern of giving when gathered to support the priests) suggests that Sunday is a good day.</p> <p>Most importantly, giving is an act of worship. Even if there are no needs to be met or pastors to be paid, the Lord is worthy of our offerings. While obviously there is nothing that limits worship only to Sunday, and while giving as worship is not limited to church, as you said in your first comment the "voluntarily surrendering of our possessions to the Lord each week" is an important piece of honoring Him. The discipline of weekly giving is a minimum starting level, and pattern and practicality point toward doing that on the Lord's day.</p> <p>To bullet-point the progression:</p> <ul> <li>giving is fitting [1] </li> <li>give when gathered [2]</li> <li>we're gathered on Sundays [3]</li> <li>so: it is fitting to give when we're gathered on Sunday [4]</li> </ul> <p><small> 1. If not mandated, giving is fitting for at least three general reasons: aid, wages, and worship. 2. It fits the OT and NT pattern of God's people and is practical, both for the sake of collection as well as distribution. 3. Hence the whole "first day" point I was trying to make in the message. 4. Which gets us back to the pattern in 1 Corinthians 16:2, even though a specific context.</small></p> <p>So while I did connect giving to the weekly pattern, I <em>did indeed</em> connect it to first day activities if by no other way than its context in my message: located under the sub-heading of "Explicit First Day Activities" under the heading of "The First Day." This is a universal principle that applies to, but also beyond, the particular situation in Corinth.</p> <p>What do you think? Did I make the case, and still keep the context of 1 Corinthians 16:2?</p> Back to the context of 1 Corinthians 16:2, clearly Paul was collecting funds to help the Jerusalem church. I totally agree that was at least one of the purposes of the offering.

In fact, taking collections to help those in need was a regular practice of the early church (Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-37). And when do we suppose they took those collections, especially in light of the fact that the apostles were responsible for distributing as there was need (Acts 4:35, 37)? True, there is no universally explicit command for Christians to give money to help others, and there is nothing that limits giving only to the first day of the week, but the pattern in 1 Corinthians 16:2 and the practical benefits of collecting when gathered points towards Sunday giving.

Presumably, collected money was also used to support elders who rule well (1 Timothy 5:18-19). Again there is nothing that limits this “double honor” collection to the first day of the week, but the practical benefits (and perhaps we might also add the Jewish pattern of giving when gathered to support the priests) suggests that Sunday is a good day.

Most importantly, giving is an act of worship. Even if there are no needs to be met or pastors to be paid, the Lord is worthy of our offerings. While obviously there is nothing that limits worship only to Sunday, and while giving as worship is not limited to church, as you said in your first comment the “voluntarily surrendering of our possessions to the Lord each week” is an important piece of honoring Him. The discipline of weekly giving is a minimum starting level, and pattern and practicality point toward doing that on the Lord’s day.

To bullet-point the progression:

  • giving is fitting [1]
  • give when gathered [2]
  • we’re gathered on Sundays [3]
  • so: it is fitting to give when we’re gathered on Sunday [4]

1. If not mandated, giving is fitting for at least three general reasons: aid, wages, and worship. 2. It fits the OT and NT pattern of God’s people and is practical, both for the sake of collection as well as distribution. 3. Hence the whole “first day” point I was trying to make in the message. 4. Which gets us back to the pattern in 1 Corinthians 16:2, even though a specific context.

So while I did connect giving to the weekly pattern, I did indeed connect it to first day activities if by no other way than its context in my message: located under the sub-heading of “Explicit First Day Activities” under the heading of “The First Day.” This is a universal principle that applies to, but also beyond, the particular situation in Corinth.

What do you think? Did I make the case, and still keep the context of 1 Corinthians 16:2?

]]> By: intern http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-78 intern Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:17:23 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-78 <p>My esteemed shepherd,</p> <p>To answer your questions:</p> <ol> <li><p>You did not use the word "mandate" to refer to our responsibility to give. You also did not make a point that giving was connected to the first day, but you did connect it to every week.</p></li> <li><p>I think we should meet on the first day of the week, but I understand that it is no where commanded in Scripture.</p></li> </ol> <p>So, you are saying that just as we see the example of the NT church meeting on the first day of the week and thus we do the same, so also we see them giving on the first day of every week and thus we should being doing the same?</p> My esteemed shepherd,

To answer your questions:

  1. You did not use the word “mandate” to refer to our responsibility to give. You also did not make a point that giving was connected to the first day, but you did connect it to every week.

  2. I think we should meet on the first day of the week, but I understand that it is no where commanded in Scripture.

So, you are saying that just as we see the example of the NT church meeting on the first day of the week and thus we do the same, so also we see them giving on the first day of every week and thus we should being doing the same?

]]> By: admin http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-77 admin Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:51:38 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-77 <p>Brother Intern,</p> <p>A couple questions back:</p> <p>First, did I say giving on the first day was/is a mandate, or that we see giving explicitly connected to the first day?</p> <p>Second, do you think we should meet together on the Lord's day/first day of the week? If so, why?</p> <p>Thus far I think you'd be hard pressed to show where I've made any <em>commands</em> for Sunday beside honoring the Lord. The activities mentioned are examples of what the early church did and provide material from which we must make clothes today, even if they're in a different style.</p> <p>But do answer my questions, and know there is more from me coming this next Lord's day.</p> Brother Intern,

A couple questions back:

First, did I say giving on the first day was/is a mandate, or that we see giving explicitly connected to the first day?

Second, do you think we should meet together on the Lord’s day/first day of the week? If so, why?

Thus far I think you’d be hard pressed to show where I’ve made any commands for Sunday beside honoring the Lord. The activities mentioned are examples of what the early church did and provide material from which we must make clothes today, even if they’re in a different style.

But do answer my questions, and know there is more from me coming this next Lord’s day.

]]> By: intern http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/16/the-lords-day-pt-1/comment-page-1/#comment-76 intern Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:03:42 +0000 http://www.one28ministries.org/2007/09/19/the-lords-day-pt-1/#comment-76 <p>Sean, In your point on giving, you quote 1 Corinthians 16:2. That verse is in the context of Paul asking for funds to help the Jerusalem church. How do we apply this passage today when the situation is obviously different? How do you see the exhortation of Paul for the Corinthian church to give every week for this collection that he was going collect when he arrived, as a mandate for the church today?</p> <p>I have heard Zimmer give the same point, but, at this point, I'm not entirely convinced that verse gives us a command. I understand that there are godly benefits in giving every week, such as voluntarily surrendering of our possessions to the Lord each week as an act of worship. For that reason, I see it as a practice that can further my worship and my love for God.</p> <p>Well, I have a few other questions, but that's all for now.</p> Sean, In your point on giving, you quote 1 Corinthians 16:2. That verse is in the context of Paul asking for funds to help the Jerusalem church. How do we apply this passage today when the situation is obviously different? How do you see the exhortation of Paul for the Corinthian church to give every week for this collection that he was going collect when he arrived, as a mandate for the church today?

I have heard Zimmer give the same point, but, at this point, I’m not entirely convinced that verse gives us a command. I understand that there are godly benefits in giving every week, such as voluntarily surrendering of our possessions to the Lord each week as an act of worship. For that reason, I see it as a practice that can further my worship and my love for God.

Well, I have a few other questions, but that’s all for now.

]]>